The Spiritual Intelligence Podcast
Awaken Your Inner Power



SQ Podcast Ep. 009

A Lesson About Emotions from a Pane of Glass,
with Wyn Morgan

"...at some point I'll remember that me looking at my iPad and responding to what's in my head, will be me responding to what's in my head. Whether I'm in a 10 million dollar apartment in Malibu, or in a twenty dollar a night hostel in South London, or whether I'm in my mother's spare room with a single bed, I will still experience my life and everything from within my own head, not from the outside. And therefore, by seeing that, the I'll-be-happy-when myth was busted. It meant that I could live without wishing for the moment that I started to live."

~ Wyn Morgan

Spiritual Intelligence Podcast ~ Awaken Your Inner Power

Welcome to the ninth episode, where Daniel Martinez Stahl and Wyn Morgan explore:

  • Why life isn't real and what that means to both of them.
  • How inner power is the energy and power of life expressing itself through us, which is infinite and older than time.
  • How a pane of glass helped Wyn to value all emotions and Daniel shares the idea that everything is conscious.
  • Wyn's goal for his clients to see enough of their in-built wisdom, for them to no longer think they need his.
  • How the notion that maybe "the flow" of life is where divinity is, and all we have to do is see it. 
  • How our divinity is hard to recognize but we are all divine, regardless of whether we see it or not. 
  • Wyn concludes by saying that the only thing that was ever wrong with him, was thinking there was something wrong, and how even that isn't something wrong. 

YouTube Raw Video of Interview

Wyn Morgan

Wyn introduces himself and his work as someone who helps people wake up to who they really are, primarily in the corporate world, and introduces the idea that life isn't real.

Wyn describes how inner power to him is not inner, but it is the energy and power of life that is expressing itself through him, how the power within him is "older than matter itself, older than time itself, and infinite." Inner power is a fraction of all power, of all the energy of all ages, that enjoys being aware of itself. 

Daniel asks Wyn to elaborate his earlier comment about life not being real, and he begins by speaking about how only right now is real, and how right now is no longer in the now and how the past and future are only ever constructs. Daniel follows with his own insight that we are living in an illusion. 

Why speaks about how a pane of glass helped him recognize the value of emotions, all emotions, even the ones that he had previously felt he didn't like. Daniel speaks of how if everything is consciousness, then everything must be conscious, even if it's not in the same way as we are. 

Daniel asks Wyn a direct question about what it means to be spiritual within a human experience, and Wyn highlights that fact that we, like everything else, are made of nothing more than energy, a spiritual energy, and as a result can't be anything but spiritual. 

Daniel then asks how Wyn speaks about all this with the business world, and Wyn speaks of how he starts with how they see things and what they want, and then waits to get an idea about the one thing that, if they saw it or understood it, would make the biggest difference in what they want. How he ultimately wants all I his clients to see enough of their in-built wisdom, for them to no longer think they need his or anyone else's. Both then share their thoughts around the real-time responsiveness of the ever-present wisdom.

Daniel speaks of his drive to understand how the system of life works, and how to interact with the energy of life so that we can take a more proactive role in the creation of our experiences. Wyn then follows with how it's a gift to be able to experience everything that this human form allows, for example, to taste pizza, which he loves and marzipan, which is his least favorite thing; experiencing the smell of a thunderstorm and the allergies from pollen in the same day. How we we are catching up to the idea of being in flow or riding the wave, more and more and Wyn loves the notion that maybe this is where divinity is, and all he had to do was see it.

Daniel shares how difficult it is for him to see his own divinity and how he is playing with trusting that life will provide everything that's needed in real-time, just like they discussed about how wisdom works earlier. Daniel asks Wyn for a closing thought and while he thinks, Daniel reminds us that life is here to be experienced and to allow things to happen instead of trying to control them.

Wyn then begins to speak about how we all perceive our experience from within ourself and not the circumstances themselves. He gives an example and shares how responding to what is in his head will be exactly the same if he is in a $10 million apartment or a $20 a night hostel, and how that recognition shattered his notion of I'll-be-happy-when. How it entirely removed the pressure to get the form of his life right. 

He concludes by saying, "I would just love it if people just looked within, for themselves. And, I'll just share one final thing. The only thing that was ever wrong with me was I thought there was something wrong with me, and even that wasn't wrong with me."


 

Books Wyn mentioned during the conversation: 
     Anita Morjiani, Is this Heaven on Earth?
     Michael Singer, The Surrender Experiment

About Wyn Morgan:

Wyn Morgan is a coach and change agent based in Windsor, UK and works with corporations and private individuals in every continent around the world. Having stumbled across The Three Principles 10 years ago, he has completely changed his relationship to his own life and with himself. He has been in the people development world for the past 22 years within organisations (British spelling 🙂), and as a coach-consultant with his own business for the past 15 years.

He has been mentored by George and Linda Pransky, Barb Patterson, Elsie Spittle and Michael Neill. Wyn is constantly amazed by how much more there is to see and how much more wondrous and simple life can actually be.

He says, “Helping my own clients in the corporate world achieve better results through the brilliance of their people along with those clients who come to me for their own personal needs is such a joy. I love watching them wake up to who they really are.”

And adds, “In mentoring coaches, I love how my time is leveraged to bring out the best in their coaching ability, who then help countless people all over the world to live happier, more fulfilled lives while achieving results they are thrilled with.”

Wyn is a patriotic Welshman, with a love for travel, American Football, laughter and deep conversations.

Website: www.wynning.co.uk
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/wynmorgan
Podcast: https://underthenoise.podbean.com


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⬅️ Previous Episode                      Next Episode ➡️

Life Beyond Form Three Principles Transformational Personal and Executive Coaching Spiritual Intelligence Exploration Past Life Regression Life Between Lives Reiki Healing

Daniel Martinez Stahl works with people who want to thrive in this life, with the willingness and courage to question conventional ideas and a desire to look within to access the power of their infinite potential. People who are driven to improve their life by exploring what it means to be both spirit and human; who have a curiosity about life itself, of how the mind works and about the relationship between their body, mind and spirit. Fundamentally, someone who is committed to change their life to a new normal by aligning with their higher self, innate well-being and inner wisdom. 

For more information go to: www.LifeBeyondForm.com 

Scrolling Transcript...

(SQP-Ep.009 ~ A Lesson About Emotions from a Pane of Glass ~ w. Wyn Morgan)
Editor Note: Minor edits have been made from the original audio recording for easier reading.

(opening intro music begins)

Intro Text: Welcome to the spiritual intelligence podcast, Awakening your inner power with Daniel Martinez Stahl, where we will explore, discover and integrate different aspects of our spiritual and human nature, so that we can all thrive and live life with more grace and ease, instead of struggle.

(intro music fades away)

Daniel: So, welcome to the Spiritual Intelligence Podcast once again, my name is Daniel Martinez Stahl and with me today is Wyn Morgan. Wyn is a friend of mine from the UK, he is also part of the Three Principles family of mine, and I'm really excited to see where this conversation goes. Neither of us have any clue what we're going to talk about, so it's going to be a lot of fun. I would love to have Wyn give you guys a little bit of an introduction, and then we will go from there. So, Wyn go ahead.

Wyn: I first met you in London in April of 2013, that's what I remember. I even remember the event, I remember the first moment that weekend of that event, that you and I shared a few words. And it's been really lovely to notice every time I bump into you, either in person or virtually, where your life is taking you into this exploration. So I wanted to start by saying that.

Daniel: (begins to laugh) Well, thank you, that's lovely.

Wyn: A little bit about me, you've said it. What I do in my work life is to help people wake up to who they really are. Sometimes that's a 1-to-1 conversation or sometimes that's in a group setting, mainly within businesses and sometimes people will think, "Well, what's that got to do with me being great as a — negotiating a seven-figure deal with a client and a customer, or what's that got to do with me leading my team, or my department, or my entire business," yet it's everything.

And here's a quick example. It's funny, as you were saying your introduction today, it just popped into my mind, somebody who is very senior in one of the corporate clients that I spend a lot of time working with, over the last couple of decades, and she said to me halfway through one of our sessions, on the South Bank of the River Thames, where we were having this session, she said, "How do you deal with life, when you know it isn't really real, this way?"

And I thought, "I didn't even know she'd realize that's what we were talking about." (Daniel begins to laugh) I thought that was pretty cool and then I said to her, I said, "Well, most of my life, I have no idea life was a game, but now I just really have fun playing it, as opposed to really thinking that there was such a seriousness and a heaviness about getting life right, and I had no idea that seeing life a bit more how it actually might be, with a bit more perspective, how much more free I am too express myself, how much more free I am to enjoy myself, and how much of a gift life could be." And she weld up. It's probably five or six years ago now, but I'm really happy I remembered that as you were talking. So that's what I'm up to.

Daniel: That's a lovely story, lovely story. So, the question that I always ask as a starting question and it's because of the, kind of the unofficial name of this podcast, which is Awakening to Your Inner Power, (Wyn: hm) so I like starting the conversation asking people what does inner power mean to you?

Wyn: Well, (pause) inner power to me, is not inner. It is a way that power and energy expresses itself through this form, that happened to be called Wyn Morgan. That was expressed from its mother 51 years ago, and yet it looks to me as if the power within me is older than matter itself, older than time itself, and infinite. That's what comes to mind, as an answer to that.

So, I'm a fraction, or the inner power is a fraction of all power of all energy, in this very short period of time, in this form that is really enjoying the fact that it's aware, of being in form and having the energy of all ages within and outside.

Daniel: Nice. So, I'd love to get you to expand a little bit on what you said in your introduction about how life isn't real, or something around those lines. I would love to get you to expand on that a little bit. (Wyn: Yeah) And by the way, feel free to ask me questions along the way as well, that's always an option as well.

Wyn: Life not being real, what did I mean when I said that? That in my humanness, I make up life moment-by-moment, right now, and right now, and right now, but the first of those three right now isn't now. So, the life not being real is that, to me, in the best way that I can say it right now, is that there's no past or no future, there is only ever now. Other than the construct I have in my mind about the past and the future.

But there is only ever a very single snapshot of right now that's ever really real, and everything else is either construct in my mind of all my tomorrows, and all my yesterdays, and yet right now, this isn't all my life, it's a moment in time where, (a lot of pauses between the words) — I don't know. This is way above my understanding, right? But it looks to me, (Daniel begins laughing) because I'm just, you know, just a human being who doesn't really know. But it seems to me, that when I realized that, that there's no such thing as the past or the future, that there's only ever the present moment, is that time, matter, all of that is potentially just a very fragile construct, and what's really going on is beyond what I can imagine.

And therefore — the person I was talking to earlier on, we were having a conversation and they were telling me, "what do you mean is not real?" Well, anything that changes, as quickly as how I feel and what I think, can't really be real. It's just a fleeting, eyelash in time. (pause) So, I can't really put words to it.

Daniel: Hm. Right, it's a fascinating question and I'll, I'll share my thoughts on that as well. When I started looking in this direction, one of the things that I started exploring within my own reflections and insights, came around the idea of how my interpretation of an event is based on, largely based on, the state of mind that I'm in at the time. (Wyn: hmm) And I started recognizing that if I'm in a good state of mind, I'm going to have response (A); and if I'm in a bad state of mind, I'm going to have response (B); (Wyn: yeah) and both of them are real, one of them isn't any more real than the other, they're completely arbitrary. But if both of them are real, neither of them can be real. (Wyn: yeah (with a little chuckle))

And that was one of the insights that really kind of helped me to kind of look in this direction, of not taking my experience as seriously. Because at any point in time, I could have been in a better state of mind and had a different experience. So, if I'm in a low state of mind, I don't need to give it as much importance. I don't need to give it as much energy. I don't need to get as a dramatic with it. I mean, a couple days ago I was — I woke up, I woke up, at some point during the day I found myself being really impatient, in a really bad mood, just a crappy mood all day. And I apologized to my mother for snapping at her a couple times, and I knew that it would pass. So I was in a bad mood, so what? You know, I did my best not to get into conversations and when I did, I inevitably lost my mind, I lost my patience, and reacted in a negative way. But, I apologized afterwards and, you know, the next day I was a little bit better, and the next day I was perfectly normal again. As normal as (chuckles) normal is.

And so for me that's what, that's a part of the description of what it means to live a life that isn't real, (Wyn: hmm) because it's arbitrary. it is completely arbitrary, based on the state of mind that we're in. And so that's what I think about.

Wyn: Yeah, really neat. The other thing, as you were sharing that, that I've noticed is also variable is my relationship with my state of mind, cuz sometimes when I'm in a low mood and it looks like the low mood is real, I will act out on it. I will, you know, do what you did, and that happens more than I'd like to admit. But hey, human huh, oh well. And, there are times when I'm on to the fact that I'm in a low mood, and then I don't even take that so seriously. So, my state of mind, my relationship with my state of mind is also variable. That I've noticed, which again plays the third dimension to reality, and there's probably a gazillion different dimensions to it, I would surmise.

But isn't it so fascinating? That you and I could have totally separate, inner responses and inner meanings, arbitrary meanings, we put on the same external stimulus. And that you and I would have variable responses inside, moment-by-moment, to the exact same external stimulus. And if we caught on to the fact that that's how we are, that's another level of having a different experience of the exact same thing. So, yeah, that's just a mind blowing wonderful thing to even contemplate.

Daniel: Yeah, and this is what I refer to as the system behind life. (Wyn: hmm) It's looking at and exploring and understanding: how does the system work? How does the mechanism of life that we’re living in influence and, I don't want to say direct or drive but, how do we interact with that system in order to create our experience? And then I think that that is an aspect of our spiritual understanding that a lot of people don't recognize. Because it is a spiritual understanding. It is a spiritual mechanism that is making it possible for us to have an experience of life. But it isn't the flamboyant, you know, raise my vibration and speak with angels, and, you know, channel messages from beyond. It's a more pragmatic and more practical conversation of spirituality, which is our human experience. How do we experience life day to day? And that experience is a spiritual experience, and for me that's a, again, part of this conversation that we're having is that exploration of, what does it mean for me to be Spirit living a human form? What does it mean for me to have an experience of Life? To have an experience of anger and frustration, like I did a couple days ago, and then to have an experience of peace and tranquility and enjoyment, which I'm having now. (Wyn: yeah) You know, it's just fascinating to even reflect and contemplate that.

Wyn: Hm. I used to take — well, I'll be really open at it, about this and I don't know if I've ever told you this in person before, even though I've talked about it publicly before. I wasn't particularly happy with being me for a very long time. I wasn't particularly happy that I'd been born. I was miserable a lot of the time, and when I wasn't miserable, I was still taking a lot of my life really seriously and taking myself very seriously. And I tripped over the mechanics of how we work, in the way you described it, 10 years ago. And a few years later I was at a conference, a Three Principles Global Community (3PGC.org) conference in Minneapolis, and really loving my time there. I just — enjoying soaking up the talks and meeting people I'd heard of, and a lot of people I never did, that became good friends, and hanging out with people who I was very close with and just laughing a lot.

And, at one point, in between two talks. I was at the mezzanine level of the hotel, and the mezzanine level had these big glass panels between the brass railings. And, for whatever reason, I noticed one of the panes of glass and I thought, "If that pane of glass was conscious, and it could have emotions and feelings, even if it was for 5 minutes, how much would it want that experience? Even if the feeling of the emotion was sadness, would that pane of glass say 'Yes, I would love any emotion, that would beat this just being a pane of glass.'" And in my head, the pane of glass would say, "Absolutely, I would love a few minutes of any emotion please." And I noticed that for the fir... — I don't know, I may have been 43 or 44 at the time, I really resisted every emotion, and I'm no different from that glass other than the fact that I wear, that I have emotions.

And for some reason, that got me to be at peace in the way that you just described with your own anger, upset, frustration. Cuz I no longer saw those emotions that I didn't like — insecurity, feeling depressed, feeling a lack — I no longer had such a, I don't know, adversarial relationship with emotions I didn't enjoy. I became at peace with the range of the human emotion, with the range of the human experience that I did not think was possible, until that moment.

Daniel: A term that a lot of people talk about or that use, is the term of transcendence and this idea of transcending our human experience, and I find it that is oftentimes misstated. Because I hear people talking about transcending our human experience in their pursuit of a spiritual experience. (Wyn: hmm) And what I find is that transcending our human experience is the opposite of that. Transcending our human experience is the absorption and full commitment to the experience of being human, and along with that, the accompaniment of the fact that there is a spiritual reality or a spiritual component to it. (Wyn: hmm) And that's what I thought about when you were just speaking, is that idea of transcending our experience, being comfortable with whatever it is that we're experiencing, being at peace with a horrible experience and a horrible emotion and still being at peace with it. Not necessarily enjoying it or looking for it, not looking for it, but being comfortable in it, within it, (Wyn: hmm) and being at ease within it and that is another aspect of shifting our relationship with our experience.

But, it was interesting that you talked about the pane of glass, because one of the things that I have played with ever since I heard it, is this idea of consciousness. Because, consciousness is our awareness of existence, our awareness of (pause) existence, (Wyn: hmm) I don't want to use another word for it and, I've also heard Sydney Banks and other spiritual people talk about how Consciousness is everything, (Wyn: hmm) and everything is Consciousness, (Wyn: hmm) which means that a mountain is conscious, which means the pane of glass is conscious. (Wyn: huh) They might not have emotions like we understand them, but I started reflecting on that possibility that they're — if they're all Consciousness, there has to be an essence of awareness within that, and it reminds me of a friend of mine whom I actually want to have speak in the series as well, but years ago she was telling me about how she would speak to the spirits of grass, and the spirits of a stone, and the spirits of everything. Everything has a spirit associated with it, and so she would have conversations with these spirits. And that's what I thought about when you were speaking of the pane of glass having awareness.

Wyn: Hmm, yeah and who's to know? (Daniel: yeah) That's one thing that I know I have no clue. No clue.

Daniel: So, I would love to. just kind of changing paths a little bit here, I would love to, (pause) I would love to get your thoughts on, or your experience on, what it means to be a spiritual within a human body. And I know that we have been talking about this a little bit, but just being a little bit more direct with the question, I would love to get your thoughts on what that means to you.

Wyn: How I see it right now? Energy and matter. And also to note, you know, I'm smiling given what you said about the spirit of grass, the spirit of stone, the spirit of mountain, the spirit of glass. Well, all of those entities have energy, the vibration that effectively is what gives the formless form. Because there isn't really form, there is nothing really there in any of that stuff, including in me. Other than the energy that binds the subatomic particles into atoms, into molecules, into more complex things. And it's made of nothing. Other than energy playing the game of form. So, I cannot be anything other than spiritual, because I'm made of Spirit, made of energy. And I'm made of this current very fallible version of form, that will be something else in the not-too-distant future, in the big scheme of things. Even the enamel in my teeth, the hardest element in the human body, will be something else in only a few thousand years. And a few thousand years is nothing given, apparently, the age of the universe, the age of the solar system, and the age of this planet.

So, I find it fun to know that I can be no more, nor less spiritual than the most spiritual, inverted commas, person who ever existed. Nor less spiritual than the person who is, or more spiritual, nor less than the most spiritual, or the least spiritual person that we might consider to be spiritual or not. Because we are made of the same thing. We're of the same. Which I guess is a long-winded way of saying that we're all the same, as one energy, (Daniel: hm) playing form.

Daniel: The oneness, (Wyn: yeah) as Harry was speaking about in the last episode. (Wyn: oh cool) When you are speaking with corporations and businesses, what do you share? What do you talk about? How do you tie in this conversation with the practical, pragmatic, solution-based mentality that exists in the business world?

Wyn: Well, I would start by understanding how they see things, and what they want for themselves or their people or their company. And then I'll just get curious, and at some point it'll dawn on me, what will be the one thing that if they understood it would have the biggest impact in the direction of what they'd love.

So, the conversation — how I've been talking with you today, wouldn't necessarily be, it would be very rarely how I would start with a group of C-suite Executives who want to be able to work better together — probably wouldn't be where I'd start. But I would start with where they're at, and then I'd see. That if they understood this one thing about what it is to be human, and how we work, the difference that that would make for them.

And, you're right. The second part of your question about in the very solution-based world, I would — one thing that I would wish for them to know is that the best thing I can do for them is to not provide them with solutions, other than for them to know that the solutions are built within them. And I'd then just keep having conversations in that direction with them, (Daniel: hm) and see where it goes.

Daniel: Can you talk about how we have the capacity for solutions within inside ourselves?

Wyn: Well, what I underestimate, for myself and I know a lot of people do, is that we have an inner knowing, that is — that always shows up in real time when required. So, if there's something that requires a solution, it appears. I've constantly underestimated that real-time responsiveness to my life. I've constantly thought that I needed to know the answer to tomorrow's issues and tomorrow's problems today, and have the solutions to the things that I have just made up. When I notice that I have that real-time responsiveness, wisdom, inner genius, the inner power that you mentioned earlier on, that is how I'm made and how everyone is made, all of a sudden, it makes less sense for me to preempt tomorrow's solutions.

But, I had to see that for myself, and then what I notice when other people see that for themselves, they no longer are addicted to getting a prescriptive solution from outside of them. They're not coming to me so much for the answers to, what if this happens in October, in two-and-a-half months time. They're no longer so interested in that, cuz they know that they have it within them, to why they'll self generate a resolution or a knowing of what to do to help the resolution occur. (pause) Or another way of saying it would be, I want them to see enough of their in-built wisdom, for them to no longer think they need mine. (Daniel: hm)

Daniel: And I love that direction, and I would love for you to expand on that a little bit more and I'll ask, and I'll explain what I mean. I can remember myself, and I imagine listeners on the podcast are saying to themselves, "Easier said than done, my life, you know, they don't understand my life, my life is in struggle and turmoil, my anxiety is real, my challenge are on top of me and I don't have solutions," and that whole quote-unquote reality that they're living in, seems very real and is very real in many regards.

So, I would love to hear your thoughts and for you to expand on what you mean by, "We have this inner wisdom inside of ourselves, and that we underestimate it." (Wyn: hm) And it's not necessarily a "how-to" question but it's kind of leaning in that direction of, how do you help somebody see that for themselves?

Wyn: Well, I get them to take a look, first of all. Well it's, it's difficult to actually answer that question without being in direct conversation with the person. It's difficult, right? (dogs barking in the background) Because in the same way as, my wisdom shows up when it's required, answering a theoretical question, which is what this is, won't be so alive as it would be if I was talking with someone who was in it right now. (Daniel: right, right) But I'll give a couple of examples. (Daniel: yeah)

So, somebody else earlier on today that I was talking with, it was really clear to me that they were really seeing themselves clearly, but they didn't think they did. So, I was hearing so much wisdom, they hadn't caught on to it. So, with them, it was just like (he smacks his forehead) smack me in the head that, "Wow, this person is so wise, they see so much, how come they don't see what they see?" It was curious to me. So, I got them to take a look, and I said, "You know when you said that? That's really wise." He said, "What do you mean?" "Well, that's how it looks to me." "Really?" "Yeah. Well you know when you did this?" "Yeah." "Well, what was that?" "Lucky," or this and this and, so, I got them to reflect on what's been happening in their life and they just hadn't noticed it.

And sometimes I would share that for myself. Sometimes I would share stories about my own (chuckles) hidden wisdom, or hidden ways of working that was blind to me because I was stuck in my own thinking about things. And it would just occur to me to share what makes sense in the moment.

There's an organization, there are two organizations. There's a group of coaches, and a corporation, that because I was sharing earlier this year some stories about what I'd noticed for myself, they, both of these separate entities, in different parts of the world, and totally different other walks of life, both talk about thought squirrels. (begins chuckling) Because I was sharing what I've noticed about squirrels in my garden, and how that related to thought. Now, I shared that a few times in January and February. All of a sudden, this Global organization of this group of coaches in Europe now talk about thought squirrels, as a metaphor. Now, it worked in that moment. But it doesn't mean it would work if I was talking with somebody in 10 minutes time. Because there's the aliveness there too, that I don't have to know in advance. Now, I've no idea if that is a helpful answer to you or anyone else listening, Daniel, but it's the best I got right now.

Daniel: Yeah, I love it. I love it. What I wanted to emphasize in what you're saying is, just to kind of bring it back home a little bit, is that (slight pause) the wisdom inside of us is responsive in the moment, (Wyn: yeah) to what is happening in the moment. Not to, as you said earlier, not to a potential future and not to a past. (Wyn: right, in real-time now, yeah) Our inner wisdom is going to provide us with the information that we need, to best handle any situation, in the moment when that moment is present, and we're in the middle of it. As long as we are, I want to say, let me rephrase that. I was going to say something differently but I'll put it in a different way.

This information is always being given to us, the difference comes when whether or not we listen to it. Whether or not we recognize it. Because, and I'll speak for myself, I know that when I get really caught up in the content of the situation that I'm facing, it's very easy for me to get lost in the emotional response of it, and when I'm in that state it's harder for me to listen to the whispers of my wisdom. (Wyn: yeah) And, knowing that they're there makes it easier for me to look for them. (Wyn: hmmm) Knowing that this is a natural part of how I function, (Wyn: hmm) it's a natural default state of my existence and it is a spiritual intelligence communicating to me in real time, makes it easier for me to remember that, and to listen for the whispers of the wisdom, as opposed to the screams of my content.

Wyn: Beautifully said sir, that's how I would say it too, if I was as articulate as the way that you just said it. (Daniel: begins to laugh) Here's the other thing that I've noticed. Sometimes, I think it looks like we need to therefore will wisdom into existence, "Oh come on, let me now pray to the God of wisdom to come and answer my plight." (Daniel: very good point) And I've noticed it doesn't work that way, (pause) I think, look, this is you and I talking in human words, in one language, about one thing, and we call it wisdom. I don't really know what's going on. Okay? But it looks to me as if there is something guiding me more than I can actually cognitively think of or consciously cognitively think of, and at the same time, I have made some pretty damn good life-changing decisions, good life-changing decisions, in the midst of huge insecurity and fear; ego-driven things, insecure-driven things. So, if there is such a thing as wisdom, I think it's got, it's got our butt regardless.

Now, I would rather be less reactive, and in a reaction to the outside world, but as a human being, it's going to happen occasionally. I'm at peace with the fact that I'm human too. That I will get stuck into my content and my noise, and my nonsense. That's how it looks thought works, in human beings, sometimes. That's what thought is designed to do. It's designed to look real when it's arbitrary, as you said earlier on. (pause)

I don't know. (pause) I think, (pause) the grand plan, if there is such a thing, works in mysterious ways. As people have said about lots of spiritual things in the past. Beyond what I want to will into existence now.

Daniel: One of the messages that I repeatedly hear from Spirit, both through my clients when we're in a spiritual regression, and or through people that I listen to that channel messages from Spirit, (Wyn: hm) is a, (pause) a unilateral message of everything is happening in divine time, (Wyn: hmmm) and that there is no wrong way to do anything, (there's a short electrical sound at this point, that I decided to leave in the audio, and not to delete it because it seemed like it was purposeful in it's placement) and a big part of for me — and I still struggle with this myself — a big part of my own growth and understanding is in fully embracing that message. Because it's so hard for me to not criticize myself for having done something a certain way, (Wyn: hmm) or for not having done something a certain way, um, and to really kind of come into the space of recognizing that whatever energy is driving life, is driving me. (Wyn: hmmmm)

I'm a part of that energy, the energy that has this incredible solar system functioning in its complexity, and the universe functioning in its complexity, is the same energy of life that is driving me. And, a lot of what we talked about in the Three Principles conversation, as well as in other conversations, is an alignment and an allowance of that energy to flow through us. And to allow that energy to be like a GPS system — is a common metaphor that a lot of people use — or in the Christian world, which I am a part of because of my upbringing in Guatemala, a lot of my family down there will talk about the moment that they saw and found God. The moment that they turned their life over to God. And that whole aspect of describing things doesn't resonate well with me, but I understand the sentiment behind it. (Wyn: yeah) I understand the idea behind this allowing of something that is capable of creating incredible worlds and universes, allowing that same energy, to live my life.

And to get out of my own way, so that I can be in alignment with what that means, and so that I can use that same energy more actively. To actively create the life that I want. To actively participate in the creation of the life that I want. (Wyn: hm) And that's the space that I'm exploring more and more, is, you know, how to, cuz I love figuring things out from a perspective of how things work. (Wyn: yeah) That's like my driver for things is, "How does the system of life work? How does my relationship with it work? How do I then interact with it in a way that is going to be beneficial for me and others and etcetera. So, there's a "how-to" aspect of the way that my mind loves putting things together.

Um, and that's the exploration that I'm currently in right now is, how do I allow myself to get into a state of awareness where that happens? And I hear people talking all the time about, it can't happen through our human body, our ego will not allow it, our human self is impossible for us to experience God, and I understand where they're coming from. But in the end, I'm still human, (Wyn: yeah) and for me to experience something, I'm still experiencing it through my human self, whether or not my ego is put aside or driving the conversation. My ego is still present, because I cannot exist without an ego. (Wyn: hm ha) I cannot exist without a sense of self. (Wyn: yup) So, it's that whole complexity and questions and, God, I'm just babbling. (Daniel begins to laugh)

Wyn: Oh, that's really cool. You know, the one thing towards the end of what you just shared, (pause) I remember thinking a while ago, quite a few years ago now, what if this is heaven? And then a lady called Anita Moorjani rolled out a book called What If This is Heaven? (https://amzn.to/3fogUWI) There is a part of this existence of being human right now, which is being able to have emotions. Having this body, this form, that can take in information and have feelings, can smell, can taste, can hear, can touch. That is, in my mind, a gift.

And I don't know if, in the spiritual plane, that's possible. I don't know. Yet, if it's true that there's a spiritual plane and we are playing here in this Earthly form, in this human form, for a certain period of time, then it makes sense for us to experience all there is to be human; our range of emotions.

Pizza and marzipan. So, my favorite thing is pizza, and my least favorite is marzipan. That I can smell — a few hours ago we had a thunderstorm, the first rain we've had in a few weeks of significance and the smell of that, (pause) and allergies to tree pollen on the same day. It's just there's something about this being alive with all of these ways that we can experience form and Spirit, that I had no idea that could be a blessing. Until I've seen more about what you were pointing at, how we work.

Cuz the more I've looked at how we work and my — the mechanics behind the human system, including my brain, my mind, my biology, my physiology, my ego — the more I've looked at how it appears that actually works, the less how to I've got to figure out, cuz I just enjoy the ride an awful lot more than I thought possible. (pause) And in that ride is the flow that you mentioned, and people are catching on more and more to flow. The business world is catching on more to it.

There was a guy yesterday, at the time of us recording, who won his first gold medal on his fourth Olympics in synchronized diving. And he said, "Today, we've just been in flow." It was his fourth Olympics and the person he was diving with, it was their first. (chuckles) Yeah, he said, "We've been in flow today." We're catching on, more and more, to that whole "riding the wave" and I think it was Michael Singer, The Surrender Experiment, which people who've read that book rave about it.
And another way of saying it, going back to what you shared about your upbringing in Guatemala and the Christian faith, is God's plan. (pause) I love the notion that maybe this is where divinity is, (pause) and all I had to do was see it.

Daniel: I find that it's the hardest thing for me to see my own divinity. It's still something that I, I don't want to say struggle with cuz it's not really a struggle, but it is something that is hard for me to recognize. I intellectually understand a lot of the conversation, but having a felt sense of my divinity is still something that I am (pause) under appreciating — I think is a word that you used, which I really like because I think that I'm under appreciating the experiences that I've had, that allow me to recognize that.

And being in an open awareness, willingness, to experience whatever life brings my way doesn't mean that I don't have my doubts. And I'll give you an example. I am currently taking care of my mother in the basement of my sister's house, where I realistically don't have an income. (Wyn: hmm) At the moment, I don't have clients. I have one client at the moment. I don't have a long, a large client base. I don't have a job, at the moment. And everything that I'm hearing in the spiritual world is, you know, pointing to this idea that there is abundance everywhere, and that you will always experience abundance if you allow it. And that, again, to the same idea that we were talking about earlier, it will be in real time.

And, you know, I question and I wonder, you know, I would love to be able to buy a house at some point, and I'm creating my vision boards and all these other things that people talk about. And it's not my responsibility to figure out how it's going to happen. I need to trust that it's going to happen, and it's really hard for me to do. (Daniel begins to laugh) (Wyn: yeah) It's really hard for me to trust that, but that for me as part of my play. (dog barks in the background) That for me is part of the game that I'm in. (Wyn: hmm) It is exploring that level of trust and of acceptance and, like we were talking about earlier before we spoke, I've been told that I have the capacity to be clairaudient, so that I can speak with Spirit directly, that hasn't happened, (Wyn: hmm) and I am reminded time and time again that it's going to happen in divine time, not in my time. (Wyn: hmm)

And for me the hardest part is letting go of my desire to control things and to want it now, and what can I do to fix it? What do I — do I need to meditate more? Do I need to take this course? Do I need…? And it's just a letting go. An allowance. (long pause)

So, I've been babbling a lot, and I apologize. The last couple episodes of the podcast have run, one exceedingly long and then the other one fairly long. So, I would love to take into account the listener’s time and keep this to about an hour. We have about 10 minutes left and at this point I usually like, kind of turning it over to you and asking if there's anything that you would like to share, anything else, any other direction that you would like to explore.

Wyn: (pause) Let me sit it with that a second cuz nothing is springing to mind.

Daniel: Yeah, no problem. (pause) While you're thinking, (Wyn: hm) there's an emphasis, (clears throat) and I know I said it earlier but there's this emphasis that just came to my mind about (pause) having faith and having trust and having peace, with wherever you are. Regardless of whether or not you're in the midst of challenges or if you're in the midst of heaven on Earth. (Wyn: hmm) Spirit seems to have a emphasis on having us experience different things in life, and that experience in and of itself, is the value of this form. And, being comfortable with where we are, allowing things to happen in their own time, without trying to control things, is just something that I wanted to emphasize. (pause)

Wyn: You know, what I noticed in something that you just said, about whether we're in the midst of this being heaven on Earth, or in the midst of a dark night of the soul, or some very challenging circumstances, and I don't mean this to diminish anything that anyone listening is going through, or that in your life or in my life we're going through. Yet, if — when I notice and I remember, that how I feel on the inside and how I perceive what's happening in my life, is how I feel and I perceive it. It's coming from within me. Not coming from life circumstances.

So, an example. I used to think that, one of my I'll-be-happy-when's, was financial security and I remember vividly feeling one morning that, I don't know, maybe in my fifth or sixth year of business that I'd made it. So this is going back, you know, the best part of a decade ago now. “Okay, here we are, sorted, I'm done,” because I have now: my cash flow is healthy; my business forecast be on that is healthy; I remember I'd invoice more in the first quote of that year than than I had the entire previous year; it was already going to be my best ever year in business. Everything was really rosy. And then an instant later had this thought, "What about next year?" It was March, and I was worried about next January.

So, I went from feeling heaven on Earth to feeling really insecure, and I was lying in bed on a Sunday morning. Nothing had changed, and yet everything I was feeling had changed. Nothing moved. And noticing that, all of us, we have a different way of feeling and perceiving the outside world. The fact that even if that looks slightly different moment-by-moment, or slightly different today than it did a week ago, worse or better, if it changes and the thing is the same, then the "thing" can't be the cause. It must be the inside-out, way of saying from within me, that I experience things, I don't see things as they are, I see things how I think in the moment they are.

And to me, that really matters. Because that takes all the pressure off, me trying to get the form of my life right, to have the house of my dreams, to win the lottery jackpot or the person of my dreams. It takes all of that "need" for that stuff to be right, in order for me to feel a certain way off the table. When I see that I'm experiencing things from the inside.

Daniel: Can you elaborate on that a little bit more, explain that, what you mean by that?

Wyn: Any specific part of that?

Daniel: The aspect of taking the pressure off of the house of your dreams, the relationship of your dreams, the finances of your dreams.

Wyn: Yeah. Well, I'll be really open, okay. There are times when I daydream about winning the EuroMillions jackpot, which is in the tens of millions of Pounds. Right? So, in US Dollars you can multiply that by 1.35, I think, the current exchange rate. So, it's a lot of money. And I will periodically look at apartment prices in Brooklyn, apartment prices or house prices in Malibu, California, and apartments in Vancouver, houses in London, houses back in my homeland of and South Wales, and houses around here where I live in Berkshire.

And in that daydream, it's a nice daydream, and then at some point I'll remember that me looking at my iPad and responding to what's in my head, will be me responding to what's in my head. Whether I'm in a 10 million dollar apartment in Malibu, or in a twenty dollar a night hostel in South London, or whether I'm in my mother's spare room in a single bed, I will still experience my life and everything from within my own head, not from the outside. And therefore, by seeing that, the I'll-be-happy-when myth was busted. It meant that I could live without wishing for the moment that I started to live. (pause)

Daniel: Beautiful. So, if somebody wanted to get in touch with you Wyn, and of course I'll have details in the description, but is there something that you would like to share?

Wyn: My name is quite distinctive. There are only two Wyn Morgan's that are easily found on social media. One is the head of Economics in Nottingham University. That's not me, I'm the other guy. (Daniel being laughing) Even though sometimes we get — each of us would, used to get invitations to LinkedIn that's intended for each other. So, we connected, this other Wyn Morgan and myself connected on that and we giggled about it. So, I'm quite easy to find that way. A podcast that you know about, Under the Noise with me and my co-host Kate Roberts, is something that I know some people are really enjoying.

But, the only other thing I would say, (pause) to what your question was, I would just love it if people just looked within, for themselves. And, I'll just share one final thing. The only thing that was ever wrong with me was I thought there was something wrong with me, and even that wasn't wrong with me.

So, going back to something that you said earlier on about, I find it hard to see the divinity in myself, I'm with you on that. Until I realized that that's not uncommon. For someone to see the divinity everywhere else other than themselves, and then it just got me a little bit curious. That probably means that we're all the same. Cuz I could see the divinity and 7.9 billion other people, and not in myself, and at some point those odds started to look a little bit ridiculous. How could I be right? One in 7.9 billion. Highly unlikely I thought, and then I just got suspicious, and then I quit believing it.

So whether you think you're divine or not, I'm sorry you are. (begins to laugh) But, I'm not really sorry. And that's to everyone listening. And, it's been really lovely to talk with you today.

Daniel: Likewise, likewise, and I look forward to continue this conversation at some other point in time.

Wyn: Me too my friend, me too.

Daniel: Alright, so, I will look forward to your latest episode on your podcast, which I also enjoy listening to and I look forward to at some point connecting in person. So lots of love to you my friend and I will talk to you soon.

Wyn: And you, it's been a pleasure talking with you, Daniel. Take care.

Daniel: Likewise, bye bye.


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